Lonewacko, All we need is a examination of today's real life political issues from a loony bi-polar Sci-Fi writer. The one of first questions any Open Borders advocate should be asked is to demonstrate whether or not their policies have lead to a more just, tolerant and prosperous Mexican society. If providing economic refuge for an additiona 12-20 million illegal Mexican nationals over the last 20 years was shown to be resulting in a great positive transformation of Mexico they perhaps might have a case that the costs to our society based on a "the greater good" argument were somehow justified. Instead more illegal immigration and Open Borders insanity is only feeding more corruption and greater economic injustice on both sides of the border. Instead what is clearly happening is that Mexico is raising an entire generation across economic and racial classes that no longer has a vested interest in improving their own nation. You now have a new and growing generation of the impoverished that only looks forward to escaping to the US all the while claiming victimhood at the hands of their new neighbors who are straining to provide them with social benefits that are being refused them in their own homeland. Somebody needs to dig up the claims of Open Borders advocates from 20-40 years ago as to what they expected their policies to have resulted in for both Mexico and the US. A comparison of their surely glowingly positive predictions to todays' disasterous results would be very enlightening. The first rule of ending further insanity being to periodically take a break to examine one's progress and if necessay to stop digging if one is only making a bigger hole. So the question remains what evidence do the Open Borders advocates wish to put forth that would lead one to expect that the future end result would be any different from what is being experienced today. I find that this approach never fails to send Open Borders fanatics into seisures of ad hominem attacks and name calling.

lj, That's a good technique to put invasion supporters back on their heels, but ultimately it plays the game by their rules. US immigration policy shouldn't be driven by what's good (or bad) for Mexico. lw, Card not only distorts reality, he inverts it. The false dichotomy that invasion supporters like him present isn't false in the sense that we'll either give Amnesty to the invaders or else we'll have to Exterminate them. It's false because they want Amnesty for the invaders which will inevitably Exterminate _us_. That is in fact what we're getting right now, in slow motion, even with the status quo. And they know it. See the comment by "Smart". They have their cake, and they're eating it too. Who are they fooling? Apparently most people.

Tanstaafl, THAT\'S A GOOD TECHNIQUE TO PUT INVASION SUPPORTERS BACK ON THEIR HEELS, BUT ULTIMATELY IT PLAYS THE GAME BY THEIR RULES. US IMMIGRATION POLICY SHOULDN\'T BE DRIVEN BY WHAT\'S GOOD (OR BAD) FOR MEXICO. I basically agree with what you are saying. Still it helps to show that even after momentarily accepting the extreme Open Border's advocate's premise that nation states are inherently intolerable artifical constructs, the world would be better off in the future with out them and therefore the current laws are unjust and should be ignored or simply unenforced, their justification based on the "the greater good" for some if not all simply does not begin to hold water. Yes, while Open Borders advocates can easily point to individual winners who benefited enormously, particularly the superrich shareholder class (snark!!!), clearly the overwhelming data shows increasing and broad based strains on both Mexican and American societies with no future reversial of the downsides forseeable. As a traditional Liberal Democrat who nontheless feels that the 1965 Immigration Act was a fiasco for both the US, Mexico and most of Latin America, I find this approach very effective. Hardcore New Lefties who immediately assume that all those infavor of a move towards Immigration Restrictionist policies are far Right-Wingers if not members of the KKK. They insist on being blind to polls that show 55-65% of self identifying Democrats favoring Immigration Restrictionist policies. Asking Open Borders advocates to demonstrate on an empirical basis that the policies advocated for the last forty years have had the results they had theorized them to have had makes them go positively ape-shit. Furthermore, as a way of delivering the coup de grace so to speak, it helps to ask Open Borders and Marcusian Multiculturalism advocates whether or not it would have been far more effective based on their own transnational "greater good" criteria if previous models of development based on universial cultural, economic and social norms would have been far more positive for less developed countries. I think comparing the relative improvement in Mexico's per captia rates of literacy, distribution of income, and GDP from 1940 to 1975 vs the last 30 years of Open Borders would be really instructive. Inspite of a major drop in the birth rate, the Oil and Drug trafficing economic boom and the export of 30+ million of its impoverished to the US, Mexico which use to be seen as an developing world bright spot as late as 1984 seems to be floundering towards chaos.

llamajockey, you sound earnest. What you seem to realize is that Liberal Democrats and Conservative Republicans have both been betrayed by their leaders. The depth of that betrayal is difficult to grasp, but by all means go plumb the depths by debating its true believers. Perhaps you'll even deprogram a few of the simple followers. The truly hard-core corporatists and leftists who favor open borders not only make rosy predictions that turn out wrong, they do so deliberately. Hold your nose and read what the supposed Right-Wing restrictionists (including the KKK) have had to say about immigration and it should be clear (if you can be objective) who is closer to the truth. You don't have to get into who or why they do what they do, just focus on who says what would happen and what actually has happened. When you rip the mask off the invasion supporting liars then you can see who really is a threat to your health, wealth, and safety. They would rather ship us dissidents off to gulags than give up their slave/victim class.

Tanstaafl, The reason I spend the effort to make these arguments with Leftwing Open Borders advocates is that so many of them base their opinions on mere Belief, some even quote the Bible particularly Leviticus, or even worse fashion, which includes most under 25 self styled "multiculturalists". Nothing is more bizarre to a truely rational and commited liberal progressive then watching folks who would otherwise ridicule those who quote Leviticus in order to support their opinions, for example say that it is correct to deny Homosexual's their equal rights, accept without question or skepticism Hillary, Ted Kennedy, Cardinal Mahoney. Rev Jim Wallis or a fanatic like the immigration lawyer Rick Swartz as they quote the Bible to support Open Borders. Liberals who otherwise mock Conservatives who mention their personal religious dialog with their "invisible friend" as the primary basis for their views on Abortion, Premarital Sex and Abstinance only education, support for Israeli Settlements on the West Bank and wrongfullness of homosexuality deserve to get their asses handed to them when they use their personal religious beliefs to deflect criticism and demands for critical reasoning on immigration related issues. Then there are most young folks whose political opinions on immigration matters have not advanced much beyond their Freshman bull sessions back in their college days. Their views are really shaped by a shallow naive acceptance of a highly fashionable Multiculturalism uninfluenced by real world experience. I am not sure if the cause is so much political correctness indoctrination enforced by a college and or later the corporate adminstrations. Personally, I seriously doubt if it is any nearly as sinister or calculated as folks like David Horowitz claim. Instead I believe it has more to do with the fact that so many folks grow up living lifes where outside of the superficial they have relatively little intimate knowledge of the lifes of those potentially negatively impacted by Open Borders and labor arbitrage policies. Really why should not a sheltered middle class young person who family has most likely only personally benefited from Cheap Labor promoting policies not be able to see the downsides. You see this most starkly when you go to a political meeting mixer at a local bar or house party. Folks relatively new to grass roots politics who have done frightfully little true retail campaigning on behalf of a candidate admit to being absolutely shocked at the genuine and heartfelt anger and sense of betrayl of their party's working class base over "FREE TRADE", NAFTA, CHINA PNTR, Global Labor Arbitrage and especially "Open Borders". Quite a few of them are at so completely dishearted to have folks who they thought would only greet them with open arms and warm hearts because they identify themselves as fellow Democrats that they refuse to ever again go door to door or even phone bank. That is the

You're preaching to the pope my friend. But please do keep giving your political acquaintances what for about the invasion. I might also ask you to consider putting in a word or two concerning hate speech [1], that rather characteristic tendency of the left to criminalize certain words and phrases. Much of the mainstream immigration debate is to this day paralyzed by the fear something you say will get you labeled a hater. The best way to teach (or deprogram) the young ones is to use crisp clear speech.

Links:
------
[1] age-of-treason.blogspot.com/2007/08/hate-speech-pinheads-really-hate-speech.html