"One irony is that if we are somehow able to regulate all this, the growers and other businesses will actually have to pay fair wages and provide safe workplaces, etc. They wont have that massive workforce that is here without rights, without the power to do anything about how they are treated if they're here by legal means."

Exactly! And, certainly, there is a need for some immigration. I think that most people understand that. But there are no "jobs Americans won't do" - there are jobs that have been priced so low because businesses - and individuals - can hire illegal immigrants that US citizens are being pushed out of them. They can't afford to work for those wages, and in some cases they are not hired to work because they have, and know, their rights. Where I live in SW VA, US citizens still do "the jobs Americans won't do": Construction, hotels, restaurants, lawn work, house cleaning, odd jobs, agriculture.

Ryan A, as I'm sure you know, I'm not referring to a quick day trip to Mexico, but a more or less permanent stay!

I know, I know. I was just pointing out the fact that there wasnt very much that stopped us from going into Mex. Nobody asked us anything, and didnt care when we entered the country. I always thought that was interesting, but then, look at all the American $$$ thats being spent down there...

One thing that I think we can agree upon is this: Businesses that knowingly employ illegal immigrants are the main culprits. They are guilty of criminal conspiracy and should be treated like any ordinary practitioner of organized crime.

Big and small businesses, as well as citizens who hire the people illegally, yes. I have a feeling that our solutions would differ however. Maybe, maybe not. I tend to think that if businesses and ordinary citizens have a need for the labor source, then it all has to be done legally, and some changes would have to occur to make that happen. Everyone knows its not a great idea to keep the current "system" going, with all of the extortion, corruption, and problems associated. If the workers come in here, it would be A LOT better to have them coming through some kind of regulated process, as opposed to crossing deserts or hiding in trucks, etc.

But some people simply refuse to look at the possibility that the workers are needed. To me, it looks like they are. What that means to me is that thousands of people are going around the legal process FOR SOME REASON. Maybe the quotas are way lower than they should be, maybe going around the legal means is more cost efficient (I'm pretty sure it is).

What I dont like is when this is turned into some kind of racial/cultural issue, when really its about employers here in the states, and the fact that they want the laborers, and are willing to forgoe immigration laws in order to get them. I think it's BS to attribute any of this to race, culture, cultural invasion, or what have you.

One irony is that if we are somehow able to regulate all this, the growers and other businesses will actually have to pay fair wages and provide safe workplaces, etc. They wont have that massive workforce that is here without rights, without the power to do anything about how they are treated if they're here by legal means.

Ryan A, as I'm sure you know, I'm not referring to a quick day trip to Mexico, but a more or less permanent stay!
One thing that I think we can agree upon is this: Businesses that knowingly employ illegal immigrants are the main culprits. They are guilty of criminal conspiracy and should be treated like any ordinary practitioner of organized crime.

UH...I grew up in San Diego, and we used to just walk right into Mexico without talking to anyone...right from SD to TJ in minutes. No big deal.

Look, I know that people who come here have it good, and I know that there are problems with our immigration system, and that illegal immigration needs to be addressed. There are tons of contradictions in our laws, and in the actions of US citizens themselves about this.

How many third world countries have huge business interests that are inviting illegal workers into their countries? How many third world countries are full of restaurants that hire illegal workers? How many third world countries have citizens who hire thousands of illegal workers daily? The problem is internal, and something that we Americans need to figure out. If we want the workers, then we have to find ways to bring them here efficiently, fairly, and legally.

Ryan A, I suggest that you try going to another country - let's say Mexico - without going through that country's governmental channels. Once you get in illegally, try to get a job or send your kids to "public" schools. When you become ill, try getting free care at a local hospital. If you produce a baby while there, see if he's declared a citizen. Hire a lawyer - if you can find and/or afford one - to protect your "rights" in that country. What gets lost here is that most countries in the world, including poor third world countries, do not tolerate the level of migratory lawlessness that the US does. It's gotta stop......

dchamil:

The point is not that having ancestors who came here at an early date gives me or anyone special status.

Well then why do you think that you have some special status over new people who come here? You think that God gave you this land, or do you realize that your presence here is due to past migrations? How do you think your ancestors got here?

The point is that if you import enough Mexicans, they don't assimilate, and you change the culture to something very much like Mexico, along with the crime and corruption so typical of that country.

The fact that people may or may not assimilate does not automatically lead to the results that you state. Crime and corruption is a problem of the current Mexican government, yes, but that doesnt mean that it's inherent in the culture of Mexican people. Big assumption on your part there, and it seems like it's more based on your personal opinions than anything else.

Its nature has been due to a common heritage of English common law, Enlightenment ideas, and Northern European descent.

Ah, there we are, your real concerns come out. Why dont you make this little speech to all the Native American people who were here for a few thousand years before any of that was thought up. It's not like the conquest of these lands was done according to any sort of moral, legal, or ethical ideas, pal. It was a blatent land grab, and the ideas of the enlightenment went by the wayside whenever some Indian group got in the way of so called progress. I can look at our history and understand that it wasnt all pretty, wasnt all fair, and wasnt all what we wish it was. The enlightenment was all about a connection between all human groups, and that certainly wasnt the kind of thinking that was going on when the US expanded west. Indians were thought of as being inferior, and in the way, basically

People from Mexico come here for the same reasons that my ancestors came here in the 1700s: for the chance at a better life. Thats your history and mine, unless you are a Native American. You come from immigrants, so do I. You think that European Americans, like my ancestors, came here "legally"??? Hell no, they violated treaty after treaty in order to get what they wanted. The point: dont get all high and mighty pal.

Mexicans and other immigrants are humans, and they come here to try to survive...the same way that Europeans flooded here in the past. We are the richest nation on earth, AND many Americans basically invite those people here, and are happy to benefit from their labors.

If you change these things, and they certainly have changed in California, you change the country, regardless of words on paper.

One major constant throughout history is change. The US will change through time, thats just the way that things work. New people have come into this nation in waves in the past, and they will come in the future, and each wave will have it's own mark on this country. That doesn't bother me one bit. Humans are humans.

Regarding New Haven:

"The growth in New Haven

"the mexican oligarchies want only one thing your death as a people and as a culture do you also want that? the mexican lobbyists want just that for millions of people."
Fred has a point here:the Mexican kleptocrats have a traditional deep hatred for the "gringo". The one thing that they insist Mexican schoolchildren learn is that the US "stole" the Southwest from Mexico. No, it changed hands as a result of war, just like many other vast tracts of land throughout history.

Ryan A: The point is not that having ancestors who came here at an early date gives me or anyone special status. The point is that if you import enough Mexicans, they don't assimilate, and you change the culture to something very much like Mexico, along with the crime and corruption so typical of that country. The USA is not the country it is primarily because of words on paper, such as the Constitution. Its nature has been due to a common heritage of English common law, Enlightenment ideas, and Northern European descent. If you change these things, and they certainly have changed in California, you change the country, regardless of words on paper.

Well, thanks for that input Fred. Very insightful indeed.

its not 10 million people its over 40 million from all over the world and 24 million just from mexico, the fact is our non government of totally evil ideals needs mass alien population inside the never never land once called The USA, Our so called non government has and will encourage millions more to come for one reason the total dismantling of this system of freedom. it will someday become a genocide movement and history will show you that in all instances.

the mexican oligarchies want only one thing your death as a people and as a culture do you also want that? the mexican lobbyists want just that for millions of people.

Obviously, we shouldn't "embrace" the 10 million or more people who are here illegally. We should encourage them to go home.

Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Apparently Mayor DeStefano doesn't agree with you, and his voters must disagree with you as well.

So your answer is to just deport all these people who are living and working here. Why? What about the fact that they were more than likely hired by Americans, and have worked in these communities for years?

What exactly has made you so concerned with the presence of these people? Are you a Native American or something? Or do you have European (i.e. immigrant) ancestors? Mine came here in 1717, from Germany...what about yours?