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Barack Obama's Reconquista 101: "they didn't cross the border, the border crossed them", Indians aren't immigrants

Speaking at a high school in New Mexico, Barack Obama was asked about immigration and, according to this liveblog of the event, said:
"We are a nation of immigrants," Obama answers.

"The only people can say that they aren't immigrants are the people sitting right here," the Presidential candidate says and points to the tribal leaders.

"There are some families who have been here for 4 or 500 years. They didn't cross the border, the border crossed them."
Certainly, he's somewhat factually correct: there are old Spanish origin families who are recipients of land grants from hundreds of years ago; they were there before New Mexico was part of the U.S.

However, he's coming at this from their side, which is in conflict with our - the U.S.'s - side. In fact, his quotes are straight out of Reconquista 101, and trying to find loopholes in and complaining about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo is a favorite pasttime of hundreds of minor extremists, with the TGH forming a major part of their lore. Sentiments like his are rarely expressed by those considered mainstream; the closest I'm aware of are Dolores Huerta and a LULAC official, and both of them aren't that mainstream at all.

As for the bit about Indians not being immigrants, one wonders at which point BHO would draw the line. Most of their ancestors came over thousands of years ago, but Mayflower descendents have ancestors who were here before 150 years before this was the U.S. and some European origin peoples' ancestors were here before then. Why is BHO differentiating between those who arrived from Europe and those who arrived from Asia? Why give so much weight to thousands versus hundreds of years? Assuming for the moment he wasn't just offering a dangerous pander, why not differentiate between those whose ancestors came here ten thousand years ago and those whose ancestors came here twenty thousand? Taken one step further, would Obama be like those who think that anyone with enough native blood - presumably more than one drop - can move anywhere within the Americas at will?

And, of course, the only people who are actually immigrants are those who are legal immigrants under our set of laws; those who were born here are not immigrants even if their ancestors were.

An open question is, other than pandering, what exactly BHO would have us do about all this? Should Mayflower descendents be considered among those who've had our borders cross over them? Is it good public policy to encourage U.S. citizens to think that our borders crossed over them? Would he give those who've been crossed over by our borders something? Would he support allowing anyone with the right amount of native blood to come here at will?

The rest of that section of his comments is his standard blather about this issue; the problems with that can be found here, here, and through a search. Discussing all the other reasons BHO's statements above are wrong is left as an exercise.

Note: I've confirmed BHO's statements with the author of the linked post.

Other tags: obama immigration

Mon, 08/18/2008 - 19:35 · Importance: 19

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 05:08
eh

Even worse than the crap that Obama says and apparently believes -- which is not so unconventional among ultra PC types -- is that to many Whites it won't matter: they'll still vote for him.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 15:04
petty bourgeois

Actually, what we consider "indians" actually displaced a previous set of "immigrants" long before the Spaniards arrived. See Kennewick Man and Penon Woman III for an anthropological study of what these people looked like: Caucasians or Ainu, no one really knows. Moreover, I'm not an immigrant. I was born here. Obama is the enemy of every white American when he chooses invaders over his countrymen. This is why he won't be president. People are not as stupid as you think. These people did not spring up from the ground. Mexicans living in Mexico are also "immigrants" under his twisted, hateful and divisive definition of an "immigrant." Even as a Kenyan, he would have had to have emigrated from the Rift Valley if we go back far enough. BHO is a a former plaintiff's race discrimination lawyer. That should be enough to wake people up as to what kind of person he is: a grifter out to make a buck.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 17:29
J.D.

I'm a descendant of one of those Spanish settlers from hundreds of years ago. In New Mexico, especially northern New Mexico, people really don't identify wih old Mexico. I do not call myself Mexican or a Mexican-American for instance. So, the border did, in fact, cross me. (Not that I'm complaining. I like to joke that while everyone wanted to be part of the U.S., the U.S. wanted us to be a part of them!) What's the big deal about saying Native Americans were here first? It's not as if Obama is saying they should be given sole control of the government or anything. I'm not seeing the "dangerous pander." @petty bourgeois: So, if Obama is "the enemy of every white American when he chooses invaders over his countrymen," shouldn't he be the enemy of every American? Or do only whites get to be considered American? You see, this is why so many people distrust people like you and your immigration policies. It just seems too vested in racism. Maybe you don't see it. I don't expect you would. I'm not saying everyone should just be allowed in whenever they want, but there has to be a better way to accomplish what we want. Increase the money to the Border Patrol and let's work with Mexico to improve their economy so people have other options than to come here. There has to be a better way than NAFTA because that sucked. Badly. I don't fault Mexicans for wanting to come here. I sure as hell don't want to live in Mexico!

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 18:28
petty bourgeois

First of all, Native Americans does not include mexicans. See above. "So, if Obama is "the enemy of every white American when he chooses invaders over his countrymen," shouldn't he be the enemy of every American? Or do only whites get to be considered American?" You seem to be mired in racism, not me. American blacks as a group have the most disparate impact and displacement by Mexicans. But what is your beef with white Americans? Are you racist against whites? While you may not see and danger to Mexicans taking control of government and dishing out the fruits of American labor to illegal aliens, I live in Santa Ana, which boasts its own consulate, is 92% mexican and the city council is 100% mexican. If you think white flight is funny, then you are just an apologist for genocide-lite, which is not funny at all.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 18:31
BT

He's just a pandering prostitute of a politician, just like Juan McAmnesty and Jorge Bush. All of them are guilty of "Hispandering" to so called "Hispanics" - really Latinos or Chicanos would be more ethnically correct. "Hispanic" is a kind of made-up, "pc" term to be purposefully broad in order to include greater numbers. It is true, Mexicans are "immigrants" too since they are the produce of Spain "meeting" native "Indian" tribes. In fact, everyone in the world, ever nation in the world is a "nation of immigrants" but that has little to do whether or not they have borders and laws today in the modern world. Enforce our borders. Enforce our laws, otherwise all of Mexico will come here. Mexico is so chronically corrupt, chances are they never will change. Good fences make good neighbors.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 18:35
eh

Please. None of that "nation of immigrants" crap matters. How far back do you want to go? We're in the era of modern nation states now -- have been for some time. And nation states have borders, as well as unique cultural and demographic identities that come from the majority population that created the nation as it exists today. None of that was true hundreds of years ago.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 19:03
Hal K

J.D.: It would be great if more American Hispanics came out and said unambiguously that unrestricted immigration is bad for the people already here, that it should be reduced drastically, and that there should be no amnesty for illegal immigrants. You have not done this. You have made vague statements about limiting immigration and then said that it is "racist" for whites to look out for their own interests, as if other groups of Americans don't look out for theirs. This has been pointed out before, but if you go to http://www.barackobama.com/people/ you will see that there is one particular group of Americans that is not represented there. It is the group that people like you always want to accuse of racism. It is the group whose supposed “racism” Obama made a living off of. It is the group that is being demographically dispossessed everywhere around the world, including in the countries where they are indigenous. We have the right to look out for own interests and to point out what is bad for us specifically, and your calling this "racist" is just another example of why this term has become meaningless.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 19:17
Bobby

eh, yes many whites will still vote for him, despite his treachury in supporting illegal immigration, despite his attending a racist church for twenty years, despite his being married by a racist preacher, despite having a wife and potential first lady who is racist towards whites, despite him changing his positions on important matters almost daily.WE CALL THESE WHITES--STUPID AND TRULY IGNORANT PEOPLE.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 19:24
Bobby

Are there really white people who are still so utterly stupid, as to not recognize that the charge of racism, is made against them when they try to defend what is theirs in this nation THEY created----because it works. You will be called racist, because it works for those leveling this charge at you. It works because it keeps you quiet, disempowered and indeed, subjected to every type of prejudice in the very nation your ancestors created. HOW ABOUT WAKING UP AND BECOMING AWARE, FOR A CHANGE, ESPECIALLY YOU COLLEGE STUDENTS. THINK FOR YOURSELVES, ISN'T THAT WHAT AN EDUCATION IS SUPPOSED TO RESULT IN. DON'T TAKE THE WORD OF YOUR LIBERAL BEARD SCRATCHING PROFESSOR OR MAN HATING FEMINIST. THINK FOR YOURSELF. ALL THE GREAT SCIENTISTS RECOMMENDED THIS FROM GALILEO TO EINSTEIN. WHAT IS YOUR POLITICALLY CORRECT COLLEGE PROFESSOR NEXT TO THESE GIANTS?

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 20:07
Dudley Smith

Oh, this is a spic hater site. Now I get it. Assholes.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 20:25
Bobby

Dudley Smith, you wouldn't "get it" if "it" hit you sideways. Moron.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 21:14
Fred Dawes
www.myspace.com/FredDawes1776/

Ok let's stop and think, The Indians of Mexico always like to murder the Indians of ancient california or did the mexican indians know about the other monkeys in this area? I will call this place i live in california because it had no name when only so called Indians happened to be the only people in this area 500 years ago. It is also possible that the indians of mexico never knew of this place we call california and in fact no real prehistoric facts canbe frond? to say much about the people of this area until the white guys came to help the little indians out with food and homes and roads and ideals and no real data is known that would tell anyone much about the old people of say 1500 to 25000 years ago. If mexican Indians knew about the world outside 50 miles from that indian village it would be intresting to see the real proof. by the way 4,600 mexican cops have been killed inside mexican in only 4 years, now that means i have the records and proof so were is the proof in what the BS Artist is writing about?

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 21:35
Fred Dawes
www.myspace.com/FredDawes1776/

isn't it funny that in all black so called nation states mass murder by blacks on blacks is normal. isn't it funny that in all brown so called nation states like mexico mass murder by hispanics is normal like in mexico city which has about 50,00 murders a year that OBAMA and his BS Never would say a thing about blacks being murdered in L.A. Right now in san diego co millions of blacks are coming here from L.A. CO JUST TO GET AWAY From murder, so much for the black and brown brotherhood, oh yes blacks are now starting to murder and rape whites in this area and our little brown brothers are also starting to do the same evil acts to each other more and more each year. buy guns if the pig shit Obama becomes your next ruler. ask why whites hate whites so much when a brown or black or yellow would eat that white person alive, is it a built in hate for laws and duty? or is it for some BS Political reason? be free, think, act, live, or die in some camp waiting to be eaten by a monkey person.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 21:37
Fred Dawes
www.myspace.com/FredDawes1776/

dudley smith F-U To.

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 21:46
petty bourgeois

"Spic" LOL...nice use of racial pejorative there buddy. Who is the "hater" now?

Tue, 08/19/2008 - 22:03
Leave it to Beaner

It's no anti spic, this site is pro American. Something in short supply in this Country, like our middle class jobs. I live right down the road from Santa Ana, CA. and let me tell you it's occupied American soil for damn sure. Ice could detain at least 75% of Santa Ana if they would only enforce the Law. Think of all the new cheap housing and new jobs that would be available [in just one city] if that happened. Now multiply that by 20-30 million and you see why Im fucking pissed off and dont like our choices for Pres.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 00:32
Mary

It's anti Illegal...of any persuasion. If anything, hispanics should resent those sneaking in allowing the rest of them to be stereotyped. It is getting harder and harder not to be as they demand more and more from Americans who are themselves struggling. Most of all Americans do NOT want to see this country descend into a third world hellhole. I watched Nat Geographic show Locked up Abroad...and the British guys were detained in a venezuelan prison for 4 years . I realized that the anarchy and gangs in their prisons is now in abundance in our own prisons and on our streets. Anyone who values a society that is law abiding and decent regardless of race should decry the inaction of this President and congress who are allowing this deterioration to continue. No, I was not racist, in fact growing up I couldn't tell you the difference between nationalities by names. But as this group grows more defiant you will see the resentment grow and anger build. There will result a civil war and chaos from this abandonment of law and order. Fred is right. Get ready.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 00:37
Mary

I do think Obama's wife is anxious to make whitey pay....pay for what? For so many programs and breaks that they lost the will to succeed. They need to thank Ted Kennedy and his ilk for the ghettos they reside in. That's exactly what he wants for the Mexicans too.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 01:04
Kansasgirl

Hussein is a socialist. All he wants is "elite" power. If they get their way, "we" all will be slaves of the state.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 01:57
Josie

Obama: "We are a nation of immigrants," Obama answers. "The only people can say that they aren't immigrants are the people sitting right here," the Presidential candidate says and points to the tribal leaders. "There are some families who have been here for 4 or 500 years. They didn't cross the border, the border crossed them." --------------------------------------- And this jerk wants to be President of the United States? Mexicans were not Hispanics from the southwest. American Indians were here and many of them married or had babies with Spaniards. True Hispanics were Spaniards or Spaniards crossed with American Indians. Mexicans had to cross the border! And they also were hated by Native Americans. Geronimo in his own words: http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/B/geronimo/geronixx.htm http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/B/geronimo/geroni7.htm Many women and children were carried away at different times by Mexicans. Not many of them ever returned, and those who did underwent many hardships in order to be again united with their people. Those who did not escape were slaves to the Mexicans, or perhaps even more degraded. When warriors were captured by the Mexicans they were kept in chains. Four warriors who were captured once at a place north of Casa Grande, called by the Indians Honas, were kept in chains for a year and a half, when they were exchanged for Mexicans whom we had captured. We never chained prisoners or kept them in confinement, but they seldom got away. Mexican men when captured were compelled to cut wood and herd horses. Mexican women and children were treated as our own people.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 03:35

Wow. I think it might be helpful if many of you actually spent some time reading historical texts from a variety of cultural perspectives, took a logic class or two, and stopped channeling Lou Dobbs. LOL. A mind is such a terrible thing to waste. I think who the "extremists" actually are is pretty clear. If you don't mind, next time please provide a warning when you link to an article that educated people might read. It's kinda scary to click on a link and end up in Ignoramusland. Shiver!! And yes, I'm voting for Obama. I kinda like hanging with the smart people. Might want to try it out sometime, folks.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 04:30
Bobby

Anonymous, hanging with Obama and equating it with the "smart people is really funny. How smart is it to want open borders? Obama supporters are like Obama himself internationalists. They have no real love for this nation. They'd give it away in a hearbeat. How smart is that? Obama is a parrot and talks a fast game. That's about it. Truth be told, he and McCain are bought and paid for, so in the end, it's 6 of one, half a dozen of another. A matter of perference, for which bought of goon people want to listen to for four or eight years. No need to get exicited really. The good candidates aren't supported by corporate money, and are therefore the honest ones, and I suppose like Obama and McCain, they aren't "smart" enough to be willing to be bought. Have a nice day.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 06:43
eh

_I think who the "extremists" actually are is pretty clear._ Yeah, I mean there's nothing particularly 'extreme' about [1]completely overturning the demography of a country. Plenty of precedent for that. And I'm sure the Mexicans would be very happy to turn their country over to a largely illegal invasion of gringos; they'd be all smiles.

Links:
------
[1] www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/13/census.minorities/index.html

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 09:54
D Flinchum

"Yeah, I mean there's nothing particularly 'extreme' about completely overturning the demography of a country. Plenty of precedent for that." And the most maddening thing is that the elites who are most adamant that we need this drastic change all make sure that they live as far away from the inevitable bad effects as they can, via gated communities, private school for the kids, etc. No change for them, thank you very much....

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 13:25
Mary

Dear Anonymous..( aka 'coward)) I really don't care what history shows. Times change and the numbers don't lie. We cannot allow an unfettered mass of people to come into this country . Enough is enough! Never mind that there indigent status is causing and costing hardship to American citizens. Our water and land can only handle so much before we too become like India and China and destroy what we have. So get a little education yourself and look at the here and now...that's what matters today!

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 13:30
Mary

Obama is one of the "smart People"....??? What are you smoking.... he is a 'product'. Packaged and presented by the media and the left wing image makers. If you fell for it you ain't too bright yourself. What's smart about a man who stutters and stammers everytime he has to answer a question that supposedly comes from his 'heart'? The guy is phony of the worst kind. Educate yourself and take a listen to his Reverend who he sat and listened to for 20 years. Then you will get a real sense of the man you think is so terrific. He is as racist and elitist as they come.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 14:08
Hal K

Anonymous, it is shallow and foolish to support a candidate based on wanting to be with the in crowd.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 14:53
petty bourgeois

"I kinda like hanging with the smart people." Like the least cited editor of Harvard Law Review ever? Yeah, he is smart all right. He got into Harvard on an affirmative action quota (racism for its own sake) and then when he got there he wasn't smart enough to handle it. Ditto for his wife and her vacation at Princeton. These people are grifters, not intellectuals.

Wed, 08/20/2008 - 16:21
Fred Dawes
www.myspace.com/FredDawes1776/

Long live the ideals of 1776 and to hell with the monkey rats, as the guy said long-a-go, come get me! I am here and will not move until god tell's me to die! U.S. Army. by the way see the world for what it is, EVIL And the people of the world are nothing but little monkeys in the trees, like Obama. by the way Obama brother has been froud in africa and is as poor ar can be, his brother said he knew his brother well but Obama said he only saw his brother 2 times? if you ask me Obama lived in africa from day one until he got into the drug dealing thing, after that he came here to become the head black, obama is a foreign pig who has big white money behind him for evil reasons. hate is good if your enemies want you dead.

Fri, 08/22/2008 - 17:20
marc

white power!

Fri, 08/22/2008 - 18:59
Joe

Wow, I feel kind of sorry for all of you haters. Living with all of this fear and hatred of people just based upon their race or where they were born. America is the greatest country in history because it has been open to new ideas and new people. We don't get stuck forever in bad patterns. Yeah, sometimes it comes in the form of change: The Revolutionary War, the Civil War (which I guess that many of you wish had been won by the South), giving women and blacks the right to vote (again probably not popular with many who read this page). It seems to me that those of you who can't support what is truly American - like equality and diversity (ever heard of all men are created equal?), than you are really just America haters. I think that America is the greatest country in the world because of its freedom and liberties, not in spite of them. So, you'll never convince me that I should hate our country or our leaders because they are open and kind to Blacks, Hipspanics or any other race.

Fri, 08/22/2008 - 19:54
petty bourgeois

Joe, you engage in ad hominem when you call people haters. This points to the absurdity of your argument. "Diversity" has no meaning unless you are racist enough to judge people by the color of their skin. If you are so in favor of open borders, then give me you address so I can come into your house and make myself a home. After all, I am just trying to make a better life for myself. Practice what you preach and let me squat on your homestead. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

Sat, 08/23/2008 - 01:44
Joe

Petty, I don't think that you understand what racism means. Acknowledging diversity in people is not the same as having negative thoughts or ideas about certain races. I also never said anything about having no rules or borders to our great country, so your squatter comments really have no relevance to what I wrote. I only said that I believe in freedom, equality and liberty, not the hate and fear that seems to obsess the other bloggers on this page.

Sat, 08/23/2008 - 21:45
petty bourgeois

Racism has nothing to do with the post. Read it again. You are too busy making assumptions about the civil war and accusing everyone of racism. Most of the people here are from California, and don't give a shit about the civil war, and your use of the word "racism" does not really mean anything at all. People use racism when they do not have an argument. And no one here is full of "fear" and "hatred." Invasion is invasion, and I don't care what color someone's skin is, they are still illegal invaders. You are the one preoccupied with skin color, so take a closer look at who is the racist by looking in the mirror. You certainly do not know what anyone's skin color is on here, so you just go around making blanket assumptions making an ass of yourself.

Sat, 08/23/2008 - 22:18
Billy

He was talking to native american tribal leaders. Their ancestors were here before Columbus or the pilgrims. They are truly not immigrants. This areticle makes no sense to me. Is it because Obama was talking in New Mexico that he assumes the crowd is mad up of mexicans? There are many "native" american tribes in that state.

Sat, 08/23/2008 - 22:26
Billy

Petty, Obama was the first black president of the Harvard law review board. I think that shows he had ample "smarts" for the university. His wife was at the top of her class at Princeton. I don't think you'd like to get into an intellectual argument if you ca't even take the time to research your own stupidity in posting that comment.

Sat, 08/23/2008 - 23:57
Mary

I think it is easy to see who the haters are on this board.

Sun, 08/24/2008 - 00:59
Joe

Petty, I do not care what color anyone's skin is. Only what they have to say. Are you afraid of all invaders or is it okay when Mel Gibson moves here from Australia?

Sun, 08/24/2008 - 01:03
Joe

Petty, I guess that you really want to hold onto your fear. That's too bad. Maybe one day you'll be able to relax and just enjoy the great place where we all live, instead of being so afraid of the bogeyman invaders that no politician is suggesting that we allow in without rules and regulations.

Sun, 08/24/2008 - 02:16
Hal K

It is good that people on the other side (i.e. the wrong side) of the immigration issue are reading this blog. Perhaps this means there is a chance of winning some people over to the immigration reduction side. Joe, the U.S. in the midst of a population explosion caused by immigration. Third world immigrants have higher birthrates than the native population. If the rules and regulations you are talking about make this population explosion worse or don't do anything to improve the situation then they are the wrong rules and regulations. Numbers are of the essence here. We cannot afford to pretend that those who are on the wrong side of this issue are being reasonable.

Sun, 08/24/2008 - 12:47
Joe

Hal, it is certainly nice to hear a reasonable voice of discussion on this page instead of all of the hate spewing. I, of course, agree that any program, rule or regulation system could and should be improved upon. What makes this country great is that we have these debates and can continue to try to make ourselves better. I'm not sure what the crisis is here. If we have such a population probelm, wouldn't we have high unemployment? Also, I don't think that govenment policy is the problem. Businesses want illegal immigrants. How else can restaurants (I've worked in many), local shops, construction, etc. afford to do business. If every restaurant, grocery store, etc. had to pay legal workers, they would either go out of business, or the prices would go way up. Also, I don't see too many Americans lining up for these jobs. How many of you want to deliver your own Chinese food on a bicycle in the rain at 11:00 p.m.? Or wash dishes all night in a diner? How many of you want to pay even more for your groceries? The reason that the government doesn't do enough to stop illegal immigration is because business doesn't wnat it to end. I hope that there is no one naive enough to believe that our goverment isn't looking out for the interest of our businesses. If we really want to stop illegal immigration, start busting all of the businesses that hire them. Take away the jobs and the people wouldn't be so interested in coming here. Of course, you would have to go and pick up your deliveries and wash your own dishes when you went out to eat.

Sun, 08/24/2008 - 18:41
petty bourgeois

"They are truly not immigrants." Okay, and neither am I. Your point? Joe, he got in on an affirmative action quota, same for his wife. Affirmative action quotas are not based upon merit (if you were educated you would know this). He actually diplaced someone smarter and more deserving of an education, but you choose to ignore this. As the editor of Harvard Law Review, his articles are the least cited, meaning he is the most stupid law review editor in the school's history spanning hundreds of years. In any event, I'm glad to see you rooting for the elites who attend Harvard and are so disconnected from mainstream America. Obama's half brother lives in a 6x9 shack in Kenya. What a nice millionaire he is! There are already 30 million of these invaders here who did not play by the rules you dumbass. We have already been invaded, so stop denying reality where we live since you apparently live in New Hampshire. No amount of you telling that I have "fear" is going to change that. I am not afraid of anything, so stop telling me what I "feel" you arrogant leftist prick. Low skilled jobs have always been done by Americans before the corporate slave masters displaced your American brothers. You choose the side of the corporation and the mexican over your American brothers, and that makes you a traitor. Good thing you are hiding behind a computer screen because I'm inclined to kick your pussified anti-American ass. What you are in favor of is slavery and exploitation of mexicans by corporations who then shift the cost of education and healthcare to innocent American citizens who are unable to afford having children because of policies by people like you. You also a prick for suggesting Americans are too lazy and unwilling to do these jobs. Shame on you.

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 00:35
Joe

Okay Petty, first off, if you could read, you would have seen that I didn't write "They are truly not immigrants," or anything about Obama and his wife - that was from a guy named Billy. Also, your point about Obama being the least cited editor of the Harvard Law Review has to be your stupidest yet (not an easy feat). To even become the Editor is a huge accomplishment. Your argument is like saying he's the dumbest genius. I guess that you work in the addmissions offices at both Harvard and Princeton and have insider information as to the fact that they only got in because of the color of their skin. Or is it that no black person is as smart or deserving of an education as a white person. Also, you seem to think that I want low paying jobs performed by illegal people. Again, if you could read, you would have seen that I wrote "I, of course, agree that any program, rule or regulation system could and should be improved upon." I will explain this for you: I think that we can do better with our immegration policies. In my subsequent comments, I was pointing out the difficulties involved with making these improvements. If we really want to control illegal immegration, we need to crack down on the businesses that employ them. This would be a very unpopular thing to do on both sides of the political fence - so I imagine that it won't actually get done. It would also mean that prices for basic goods would go up - again not very popular. I would love to crack down on businesses that underpay and use sweatshops and many other things that keep prices down. It's just hard to find any politician from either party who would being willing to go against business that way. Also, if there was such a problem with Americans getting jobs, why is it that our unemployment is at one of the lowest rates in our history? Yes we need to crack down on businesses, but, again, with such low unemployment, who is going to take these crappy jobs. I agree that low skilled jobs have always been done by Americans, but they didn't usually like them. Which is why so many unions popped up and created a whole other set of problems. Workers at these jobs tried to make them more palatable and now look where we are. Again, as you can see, this is a complicated issue. Where do you get these workers in today's America with low unemployment? I certainly wasn't suggesting that Americans are too lazy to do these jobs (I've washed dishes in a restaurant myself), I'm just saying that we have better options at this time. Clearly you have no real points. You are just afraid of "invaders" and have resorted to name calling, mis-quoting, and threats. You should probably stop posting to keep from further embarassing yourself. By the way, I'm from Arizona, but you appearently have something against New Hampshire. Are there too many "invaders" there? Oooh spooky!

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 02:36
Hal K

Joe | 08.24.08 - 9:52 am: The latest U.S. Census projection is that the U.S. population will be 439 million by 2050. They have to keep increasing their estimate because of the phenomenally high levels of both legal and illegal immigration, and also because of the high birthrates of immigrants. With this growth comes increased sprawl, longer commutes, and environmental degradation at the very least. There are many other negative effects. There is plenty of information out there at sites like Numbers USA, VDare, Fairus.org, etc. It doesn't make sense to try to boil down the debate on immigration to a simple question about the unemployment rate. The unemployment rate says nothing about what is happening to public schools as a result of having so many students who don't know English, for instance. There is a concept of internalized profits and externalized costs. People who profit off of immigrant labor get the profits and then pass the costs on to society, which has to pay for the education of their worker's kids, medical care, etc. Again, there is plenty of information out there, but I recommend the following, for instance, on the subject of whether we really need all of this immigrant labor: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/03/guests_or_gate_crashers.html There is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. You seem to think that there is some natural economic limit on how many desperate low-wage workers a wealthy country can absorb from its poorer neighbors, but there isn't, not without turning the wealthy country into another poor country, that is. Following your logic, when does the U.S. ever stop letting in poor immigrants? When does the population ever stop growing? When will there stop being poor people outside the U.S. who are willing to come here and undercut native-born workers? Just imagine how bad things would have to get here economically, given all the benefits of living here, in order for the poor people of the Third World to stop wanting to come here. Who knows what the population will be when we reach that point?

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 11:39
Joe

Hal, I said it before and I'll say it again. What a coherent, well thought out argument. You make several excellent points. I absolutely agree with you that we need immegration control. I don't believe that I've suggested anything different, I've just pointed out how difficult it is to make happen. Your point about interalized profits and externeralized costs is exactly why our businesses do not want to fix the problem. Think of how much money they would lose if we cracked down. And they don't like to lose money - prices would go up. It is a complicated issue that even befuddles politicians trying to fix it. John McCain originally wrote a bill to reform immegration that suggested tougher border enforcement and a kind of amnesty for current immegrants here illegally. Then he said that he would vote against this bill, because he changed his mind on the amnesty part of it. He clearly wants to do the right thing, it is just difficult to know what that is. Also, I'm waiting for the bill that suggests tougher enforcement on business (ain't gonna happen!). Maybe if more people like you were bringing these points to light, we could really get something done about it. When other people just spread fear, spew hate and have no real points to make, it becomes impossible to have a discussion. I just want to be clear. I am not against immegration control. I don't believe that it is okay for any person or business to illegally be here or hire illegals. I don't think it is okay to break any of our laws.

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 13:21
Mary

Most of the American people know only too well how lousy the country has been about protecting the border. They knew McCains plan was just talk and that nothing would be done about it...except for allowing in more illegals. As history has shown the American people were and are exactly right ...which is why they so vehemently fought against that phony immigration bill laid out by Kennedy and McCain. As one can plainly see they have STILL done almost NOTHING to secure the border. Proving once again that the congress and President are a pack of LIARS.

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 15:13
petty bourgeois

Both BHO and his wife are affirmative action beneficiaries, Joe. Like I said, if you ever went to an elite institution (not junior college) you would know this is how the system works. I'ts not my job to educate redneck dolts like you about the realities of life in Ivy League admissions policies. BHO has ZERO accomplishments in his career. Harvard needed a token black on their board, and the law review suffered for it. Look it up for yourself. These people were given preferential treatment and yet they are still the victims of a "racist" society. If you are too stupid to realize the only reason BHO went to Harvard was because he was black, then god help you in your mental retardation. And your entire argument is centered around what you perceive as "hate" and "racism." This is straight out of some marxist-leninist dictionary and is not based on any fact. You are not in the position to tell strangers what color their skin is or what they feel, you twit. You are just using code words to tell other people what they think, which is pretty fucking arrogant. Would you "hate" me if I came over and made myself comfortable in your home? Would you consider me an invader? If not, then give me your address so I can come right over. You simply don't want to put your money where your mouth is. These people need to be deported instead of ruining our hospitals and schools. Look at what a cesspool they have turned the State of Arizona into. You want more of that, or do you just enjoy calling people haters? You operate on emotion, not intellect. Cheap labor for business is not a right. Prices may go up due to increased labor costs, but when you consider real wages have not risen in about 20 years I think a higher wages for American workers would make up for this. The current system of black market labor comprised of people not paying taxes is not acceptable. This is a nation of laws, not immigrants. There should be ZERO immigration and deportation for those here illegally. How is that for a policy? I'm not emabrassed by anything. I am a published author, and you are a nobody. You will NOT control the discourse here. If you don't like it then please leave and take your pathetic illogical touchy feely leftist politics with you. Lastly, its spelled "immigration." Get a dictionary before you accuse others of embarassing themselves.

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 16:09
Joe

Petty, amazingly you wish to continue to embarrass yourself. I guess that you truly believe that every black who goes to an Ivy League school has only gotten in by affirmative action. In your world, I guess that that all black people are too stupid to get in huh? I'm very glad that it is not your job to educate anyone on how admissions work, as you clearly have no clue. I'm glad that in general it is not your job to educate anyone about anything - since, again, you clearly have no clue. It's amazing how you seem to continue to believe that I am for no immigration control, despite my continued statements to the opposite. Can you just not read? How is it that this can't sink in? I completely agree that this is a nation of laws and that cheap labor is not a right (which again, you would have known if you could understand simple text). I have just been saying that it is not an easy problem to fix. Especially because our businesses don't want to fix it. Are you really so naive that you don't understand that our politicians (on both sides) pander the business in this country? As far as your squatter comments go, once again, where did you get the idea that I don't want rules and regulations? I said quite clearly: "I am not against immigration control. I don't believe that it is okay for any person or business to illegally be here or hire illegals. I don't think it is okay to break any of our laws." Maybe you will read it this time. Once again, you have chosen to argue against points that nobody has made. While just showing that you believe that no black person is smart enough to get into an Ivy League school. Why do you continue to make a fool of yourself like this? I will give you one thing. I did have a typo. I guess that was the one thing that you read. You really should let guys like Hal make the argument, he actually makes points and I've learned some things from him. Hal, you'd better hope that nobody is actually reading Petty's book. It will undermine your efforts at getting the problems fixed. I'd hate to see people like this drown out what you have to say.

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 16:18
a Reader

Joe, newsflash: Mexicans don't just come here for "jobs." They come for the tax-payer-funded freebies. It's not a coincidence that illegal immigration exploded after the Supreme Court found a way to twist the Constitution to find a "right" for illegal alien children to have American-taxpayer financed "free" public education in Plyler vs. Doe, 1982. And it's not a coincidence that illegal immigration to California exploded after prop. 187 was overturned by a liberal court in 1995, essentially depriving American voters of the right to be represented in matters of their own taxation. Court-enforced taxpayer-funded freebies for illegals is taxation without representation.

Mon, 08/25/2008 - 17:00
Joe

a Reader, you are right. I'm sorry if you think that I suggested that the ONLY reason that immigrants come here is because of jobs. I never said that however. And again, I believe in and want immigration control. Have I ever said anything to the contrary? Although I see how you got there, your "taxation without representation" is clever, but a bit of a stretch. We do still get to vote and can still change our government, even if it happens too slowly at times (especially where the court is concerned). I still believe in our system of checks and balances even though it doesn't work perfectly all of the time.